September 28, 2000

 There's been so much happening this week, that i'm feeling overwhelmed on where to start and/or stop.  i've been busy learning about RFP's and learning how to make a graphic and about the world as corporations know it.   It's not something i'm in any hurry to repeat.  i think for now it's wiser for me to cut my teeth on much smaller businesses!  When they choose colours for a webpage, there isn't an entire committee to please.

      The only 'mailing list' topic i bit into, or even had the time to address i'm going to paste here.  It was a topic that interests me a lot, because often Master and i find ourselves caught in it.  Quite a few people had responded to the query of whether a submissive should approach a Dom who is in a relationship, for casual play.  Or rather more pointedly, where the Dominant's property fits into the equation.  The post i responded to is as follows:

shimmer said:
<snip>
To me, manners and good sense say that you don't approach a Dom who is in a relationship with a request to scene, in the same way a Dom wouldn't approach a collared submissive and ask her to scene.
>>
</snip> 

<me>Thank you, that's exactly how i feel about the topic as well. And perhaps that is not lifestyle or D/s or BDSM based (insert your own label here) at all, but rather just politeness, and sensitivity of feelings to all those involved.

<shimmer><snip>
this Dom play with me, I might ask his submissive how she felt about it first :) Why cause grief? She could give me the best indicator as to whether or not it was a good idea. 
>> Of course, there are those that just don't care how others feel, so any discussion of etiquette is going to be lost on them.
</snip>

<me>Again, i agree here, but with a few thoughts to add. Master and i have actually had this discussion lately and one point He made was: it's generally accepted that the Dominant is top of the food chain, and so the "conditioned" response is they are asked first. Therefore it makes sense that the submissive might be asking in the order she/he has been
conditioned and/or trained to do. 

If the submissive is not close to the couple and doesn't know the dynamics of their relationship, then this might seem the correct path of approach. Where i take issue is if the submissive is part of a 'group' of people who are well known to each other. i believe then that he/she should take the
time to consider all aspects of the request and this would include the feelings of the Dominant's property. 

For example, if i have a desire to scene with Nikkidame or SirRob, i would _first_ speak with rosey or crysta, before i asked their Dominants. To me, this is not asking 'permission', but rather exploring the thoughts and opinions of someone who is going to be affected to a certain degree by my
scening with their Dom. 

People's relationships change from moment to moment, and perhaps the timing of my request is not a good one. Maybe they haven't had the opportunity of spending D/s time because of work or illness, or a gazillion other reasons, and the submissive can express that. If the request is made that the scene occur during a particular public event, then there's the possibility that the submissive had already been hoping to spend it alone with his/her Dominant. The list could go on and on. But these are facts i believe the requestor should know and take into consideration. 

Master likes to top, and i like to watch. But if the scene has started off on the wrong foot so to speak, with us personally, then the potential satisfaction derived is tainted. If i feel like i've been ignored or treated as inconsequential, then i can't indulge my voyeuristic tendancies with any pleasure. If He knows i'm feeling excluded, then He can't approach the scene with His usual enthusiasm. At the end of the day, it is He and i who go home with each other, it only makes sense that satisfying
all the needs involved, is more condusive to a 'good time had by all'.

<shimmer><snip>
>> 2)I would take into consideration whether or not the couple is known for  playing with others. Some relationships are more open that way, others are not.
</snip>

<me>... whether the couple is known for playing with others.. and also who is to be asked first. Some couples believe it's "ask the Dominant, and the sub will do as he/she is told." Some couples believe it's "ask the Dominant, and it will be discussed as a couple, before replying." And some couples advocate "speak with my submissive first..." i think what is more
important here, is that if a submissive wishes to play, then that
submissive should take the time to know the people he/she intends to become involved with, at least for the length of time of the scene. The dynamics of a scene extend past the length of a flogger. For myself personally, i wouldn't want to scene knowing one or the other of the couple are tense.

<shimmer><snip>
>> 3)Most likely I would show a modicum of restraint and good manners, and find someone more available with whom to play. Throwing myself at anyone (other than Master) is unseemly at the best of times :) 
</snip>

<me>blatant trolling always annoys me ... 'nuff said.

shadoe

      One thing i forgot to mention was that i think the politest way for a submissive to express interest in scening with an "attached" Dominant is to approach both people involved, at the same time.  And that if my Master has agreed to scene with someone, my expectation is that i will be present at the time.  This works in reverse as well, of course.  In my mind, this equates equally to the idea of monogamy.  We are currently monogamous and planning to remain so (although life does have it's way of changing sometimes.)  But to me, if i were to scene with someone else without a) asking permission and then b) doing it behind His back ... then i'm breaking the monogamy we are sharing.  

      Master and i have an agreement that if He plays, i play ... meaning sexually of course.  For me it's a pride thing.  Maybe misplaced and maybe wrong, but there it is.  i understand human sexuality enough to know that people are attracted to many ... not just one person all the time, and that the possibilities of sexual contact of any sort with another person other than your mate are very real.  If they were indulged behind my back however, i'd be highly insulted.  The idea that i couldn't hold my head up high with pride, or that some person thinks they have one over on me, so to speak ... is far more damaging that the knowledge of the physical act itself.  The secrecy would be the most damaging part to my psyche, i believe.  And i also believe that again, the reverse would be true.

      Now scening isn't quite so heavy a topic ... yet when a submissive approaches my Master and disregards the idea that i exist, i find it as insulting as i do about the monogamy, non-monogamy issue.  If a dominant were to approach me and totally ignore Master, He'd perhaps be less vocal about it than me, but i know it would not rest well within His thoughts. 

      Where do i conclude all this?  i don't know.  It just seems to me, that it's a whole lot wiser to communicate with everyone involved as openly and as honestly as possible ... and to weigh all the longer-lasting repercussions very carefully, before sticking one's nose in another relationship's business.

      Final note:  the above deals specifically with a submissive approaching a Dominant (whom she wants to play with alone), who is already in a relationship.  It doesn't approach the topic of things like Master's brother asking Him for permission to learn His techniques via my butt and a flogger.  Nor anyone else we've come to know and love and who might want to do the same thing.  

      'Nuff said again *g*.